Calling MelissaD, Calling MelissaD

[mitch5252]

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Melissa, I had my rig weighed at a CAT scale at the beginning of my trip a few months ago.
Do you know how to figure out my tongue weight from these numbers?
I haven't a clue, but Laura recommended I ask you!

[MelissaD]

Do have a set of numbers which is just the truck no trailer?

Short answer is "truck with trailer on it" minus the "just truck" weight equals the hitch weight. There are a couple of other things to verify so I'll just walk through my set up so you can see the complete picture. Some people just look at the change in the rear axle weight but this is inaccurate. In the case of a TT some weight comes off the front axle or if the WD hitch is set weight is "moved" to the front axle. In the case of a 5er since the hitch is mounted an 1 to 2" in front of the rear axle. Some weight is transfered to the steer axle to ensure the front axle is not unloaded (think built in WD hitch).

Example:

My set up based on CAT Scale

Just my F350 with us and full of fuel.
Steer Axle: 4,560#
Drive Axle: 3,480#
Trailer Axle: N/A
Total: 8,040#

F350 with 5er.
Steer Axle: 4,840# (rated 4,850#)
Drive Axle: 5,420# (rated 8,250#)
Trailer Axle: 9,220# (rated 12,000#, 2x6,000# axles)
Total: 19,480# also know as Gross Combined Weight (GCVWR is 20,000# on my F350, What Ford says is the max weight for truck and trailer. Normally found in owners manual or published chart.)

GVW or "truck with trailer on it"
Steer Axle: 4,840# + Drive Axle: 5,420# = 10,260#
(GVWR 11,500#, What Ford says is the max weight of my truck can be. Found in driver's door jam. )



The 1st gross check it to ensure we did not overload the tow vehicle in my case my F350. We verify the GVWR and each axles rating to ensure we did not overload the Tow Vehicle. Looking at the combined weights. I'm close on my front axle but I've got lots of room on my drive axle. I'm use to running near max on steer axle as it helps keep the front end "planted" so it steers well. Just have to keep an eye on wear. I have room to spare on the drive axle. Diesel engines are heavy and tend to push you close to the front axle limit. I'm at 10,260# which is well below my 11,500# rating.

The 2nd gross check to ensure the overall combination is within the rating of the truck. So looking in my owners manual I see the truck is rated for 20,000# GCVWR or Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating. Since I'm at 19,480# I have about 500# to play with. So I'm good there. On a side note, if you look at a pre 2005 truck when the tow wars started all trucks topped out at 20,000# GCVWR. My truck is a 2004. Reading the charts, move from gas to diesel and it stayed at 20,000# newer trucks the GCVWR goes up. Switch to the towing rear end (3.73 to 4.10) and the 20,000# stays the same. In later model years the GCVWR goes up. In 2005 it just jumps from 20,000# to 23,000#. Since this rating is a function of not overloading the engine and transmission it's a warranty and performance issue. Since my rig goes through PA with the cruise set at 60 mph by dropping a gear I'm not worried about only having 500# to spare. The 20,000# use to put you near the limits of needing a commercial drivers license so the manufactures stayed under with their ratings. Now the laws in some states have changed and Federal is 26,000# so the truck ratings have climbed. Insurance has also changed from a 10,000# limit to 14,000# GVWR in some states. It's why the F250 or 2500's are so popular as they have a 10,000# GVWR, so they are cheaper to register and insure.

Now that the truck is good we need to verify the Trailer weight:
19,480# (total truck and 5er or GCVW) - 8,040# (unloaded truck weight) = 11,440# this is my trailer weight. The trailer is rated for 13,600# GVWR so I'm good here.
Looking at the weight ticket 9,220# spread over 2 6,000# axles so we are not over axle. Some people weight each trailer wheel to ensure no individual tire is overloaded. Since weight is not evenly balanced side to side (think kitchen on one side couch on the other kind of thing) it is an extra steep to prevent blowing tires. Works best with a set of portable scales. Some Jamborees will have someone to do this for a small fee.

Trailer tongue weight:
Truck with trailer on it 10,260# - Just truck 8,040# = 2,220# pin or hitch weight.

Pin percentage (of trailer weight) = 19.4% Trailer weight 10,260# / pin or hitch weight 2,220# = 19.4 percentage (0.194055)
A 5er averages around 20% pin weight and a TT around 15%. This is a balance issue to ensure the trailer tows properly.
Since these weight tickets I added the front AC Unit etc.. and I'm now closer to 22% or 2,600# pin weight.

Well that's pretty much all I know about this subject

[mitch5252]

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I KNEW you'd know!

I will print this out, study it, and get my loaded truck to a scale tomorrow. The nearest CAT scale is over an hour away, so I think I'll try both my Co-Op scales and see if they're close to one another. If they seem off, I'll make the drive to the CAT.

THANKS, Melissa!

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[Queen]

Okay, I read both mitchs question and Melissas reply, both made my head hurt and begged the question... why do all the different weights matter? Is it so you're not overloaded or more about balancing the weight in your rig?

[MelissaD]

You're welcome. Any business with the scale to buy or sell should be state certified. The big deal with CAT Scale is their guarantee to pay a truckers overweight ticket if their scale was out of spec.

[MelissaD]

Okay, I read both mitchs question and Melissas reply, both made my head hurt and begged the question... why do all the different weights matter? Is it so you're not overloaded or more about balancing the weight in your rig?

Basically it's to ensure you are safe.

Running too much trailer for a given pickup/SUV (tow vehicle) can result in an accident due to poor handling. All those picture of SUVs and TT laying on their sides are partly due to too much trailer for the SUV. It can also result in transmission issues as the truck has to work harder than it was designed for. The automatic transmission will overheat and then fail. The springs in the suspension or other drive train component (example: universal joints) fail. Overloaded tires results in blowouts and possible loose of control while driving.




and because I don't like spending money on tickets

[mitch5252]

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I took my truck to the scale at the Co-Op today, loaded pretty similar as it would be when going dry camping
(generator, no water in tank, full gas tank, etc.)
Here are the numbers added to my previous numbers.



What do you think?

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[Acadianmom]

I'm with you Mickie, all that gave me a headache. I'll just stick to my motorhome. I belong to several RV Facebook groups and there are always people posting about vehicles and trailers and you just know they have too much trailer for their vehicle. The people we were meeting in Florida this summer had a wreck with their trailer. They have a Suburban so I think the vehicle was big enough but having ridden with the guy I know they were going too fast. The trailer was totaled and they were damn lucky they didn't get hurt.

Martha

[Queen]

I hear you, Martha. I've seen people down here towing BIG campers behind things never designed to tow anything larger than a small popup.

Maybe they need to read Mitch and Melissa's posts and try to learn a little something.

[MelissaD]

Hi Mitch, looks like you have a 820# pin weight. Trailer weighs 4,560# which gives you 17.9% hitch weight which is on the high side but since your battery (which I believe you upgraded for your solar system) and gas bottles are there it's kind of expected. I tend to like my trailers a little nose heavy. Personally I think they "pull" better that way.

I forget which truck you have (Tundra?) but if you look in the driver's door should be a sticker which lists the ratings of the axles to verify and a GVWR probably around 7,000#. Looks like your loaded weight on you truck is 5,820# Looking at the Tundra spec's online you should be awesome on all accounts.

Melissa

[Queen]

Melissa, am I understanding you correctly... you can pull a fifth wheel with a Tundra? I thought they weighed way more than a travel trailer; is it becuase of the fifth wheel attachment location in the bed of the truck? Does that allow you to pull more?

Sorry for the super basic questions, trying to wrap my head around the differences.

[mitch5252]

I forget which truck you have (Tundra?) but if you look in the driver's door should be a sticker which lists the ratings of the axles to verify and a GVWR probably around 7,000#. Looks like your loaded weight on you truck is 5,820# Looking at the Tundra spec's online you should be awesome on all accounts.

Melissa

I have a Nissan Frontier with a 620# tongue weight max (with WD).

[BirdbyBird]

Mitch you are good...still focused on the numbers Melissa is helping you figure out and VIckie and I are the ones sratching our heads and reading the statement about you being "awesome". (But I do hope that your set up is safe, balanced and go to go down the road.)

[mitch5252]

Mitch you are good...[/size][/color]

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I am AWESOME on all counts...
Just sayin'.
Well, okay not so awesome in matching a truck to a trailer...that needs some work!
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[MelissaD]

Melissa, am I understanding you correctly... you can pull a fifth wheel with a Tundra? I thought they weighed way more than a travel trailer; is it becuase of the fifth wheel attachment location in the bed of the truck? Does that allow you to pull more?

Sorry for the super basic questions, trying to wrap my head around the differences.

I think there is some confusion. Mitch has a travel trailer (TT).

Generally speaking 5er weigh more than a TT.
Generally speaking a 5er will max out the cargo capacity of a pickup before you reach the "can pull a X number trailer" Which the manufacture comes up with by taking the GCVWR-the lightest version of that model truck with a 150# driver to get the advertised towing capacity. Really need to read the fine print. When the Tundra pulled the space shuttle, that was a special towing rig and the engineers calculated they only needed 300 ft-lbs of torque to pull it. It was a full trailer (load fully supported by the trailer like a hay wagon) with a tow bar so the hitch weight was light and they only went like 10 mph. They just need a power unit with a "light" ground pressure to cross the bridge with the shuttle. It's all about weight distribution and weight per tire to protect the bridge. Pretty much any pickup can do that, but Toyota seeing a advertising opportunity was the 1st to say here's a truck and the rest you see on television. Mitch your truck probably could have done it.

There are lighter 5th wheels that are very possibly within the capacity of the Tundra. I believe Scamp ( http://www.scamptrailers.com/showroom/1 ... #!image_04 ) makes one that might work. Problem is most people want the 5er that weights 11,000 to 14,000# empty. Then get confused when they are told they need a bigger truck to carry the weight. Honestly most people have no idea of what their trailer weights and what the limits are of their tow vehicle. It really comes down to running some numbers and it's really easier than it may look on paper but it does involve a trip to the scale. When I was looking for my truck I knew my 5er weighted 10,500# when it left the factor (sticker door frame of camper) added a 1,000# or so for my junk put me to 11,500 and to make the math easy called it 12,000#. 20% or 12,000# is 2,400# add 1,000# for us and what ever we throw in truck, meant I needed a cargo capacity of around 3,500#. Since a HD (heavy duty) diesel pickup runs about 7,500# give or take, I needed a truck with a GVWR or 11,000# or better (3,500+7,500=11,000#). My truck is rated for 11,500# GVWR. Trucks after 2005 the combined (GCVWR) is high so it rarely becomes an issue.

In Mitch's case I'd look for a truck that could handle a 1,000# hitch weight and the rest of the numbers will probably fall in place.